I give up. I’ve tried time and time again to dialogue with those in the transsexuals aren’t transgender camp! Every time I try to instigate a dialogue, they flip out.
First, I notice that the TS-not-TG camp loves to segregate the trans community into a TS/IS (IS = intersex) camp and crossdressers + everyone else is into some other camp that can never be associated with TS people. I thought that this was funny because some non-Houston IS people freak out when TS people try to group TS and IS people together.
Currently Ashley Love is the leading apologist for the segregationists. She rails against people who dare refer to those whose history violates cultural gender stereotypes as being transgender. She literally believes that doing so is “assault and sexual objectification.”
I’ve tried over and over again to engage this segregationist group in dialogue and I guess today I finally have had enough of trying to talk to them. They’re exactly like trying to talk to a young-earth creationist fundi. Today, I once again tried to reach out to this group and, for the last time, had the door slammed in my face:
Here’s what I wrote to her:
From what I can gather, you feel that including transsexuals under the term transgender, “… de-medicalize women of transexxual history…”
How does having one word to identify all whose history violates cultural gender stereotypes somehow erase the existence of the small mountain of mutually supportive studies which shows that transsexualism is a medical issue? Where are these “transgender” people who are going around denying that transsexualism is a biological issue?
When I read the things you post, I just don’t understand. I’ve spent time reading pro-segregationist writings and I just don’t understand. Transsexuals, crossdressers, intersex people, gender queer people, etc are all different. There’s no question about it! Transsexualism is a biological issue and we have a number of studies to support that conclusion. Gay, Inc doesn’t have the best interests of transsexuals in mind; they’ve thrown us under the bus time and again.
I don’t hear people arguing any of these points. I think we agree on all these points. What I don’t understand is why the answer to all of these problems is to blame a word and to claim that those who use this word in a context consistent with the English language are the problem. I just don’t get it and I’ve not yet met one pro-segregationist that’s been willing to actually talk about it. Instead, most of you use any opportunity for dialogue as an opportunity to PWN or claim to be victims – not of the right wing – but of those who use the word “transgender”.
I made the video mocking the pro-segregationist stance because it continues to seem like nothing more than a paroxysm of histrionics propped up by one logical fallacy after another. Perhaps my view is incorrect, but until at least one person from the anti-transgender camp is willing to talk about it in a way that’s reasoned, my view can’t change.
The last time I tried to talk to someone in your anti-transgender camp, they claimed that I “beat off while wearing womens cloths” and didn’t say anything after they found out that the drag community regularly raises funds (thousands upon thousands since 2008) for transsexual surgeries in Houston.
The last time I asked you to expound on your ideas you simply deleted my post instead of sharing your thoughts. I’m asking that this time you please consider the possibility of entering into some kind of a dialogue.
At the very least, PLEASE answer is one question: What one word would you use to talk about everyone whose history violates cultural gender stereotypes? Obviously you don’t like the word “transgender” so, what word do you use that captures absolutely everyone who can’t fit the stereotype of what all men and women are supposed to be according to the culture we live in?
Seriously, each time I try to talk to any of you, you fly off the handle. So, would you – or ANYONE in the anti-transgender camp – please, please, please consider being open to a dialogue? Through PM, email, video chat, phone call… ANYTHING… Just, please consider a dialogue?
Here’s what her response was:
Yup, she simply deleted my post… Just like she did the last time I asked to start a dialogue. Yes, that’s right. She’s deleted my questions before… Hence my bright idea to screen capture it before she had a chance to continue pretending that those who think like I do won’t listen to her or the group she represents.
While she wasn’t interested in talking about the mud she enjoys slinging, she was interested in sending me a PM to inform me that I offended her:
Here’s my reply:
Your PM perfectly exposes the need for more dialogue. When I read what you write, it absolutely comes across as being anti-transgender to me. That’s why I again attempted to reach out to you. Would you rather me continue thinking that you hate transgender people if that (as you seem to be saying) isn’t the case? The things you write do come across *to me* as being anti-transgender. Apparently that’s not your intent when you post the things you do, but it certainly comes off that way to a number of people, myself included.
Bad mouthing you? I’ve never once name-called or said anything that I didn’t just post on your wall. I’ve certainly mocked what I currently understand to be the platform of the TS-not-TG group because everything I’ve encountered thus far from your side seems to be nothing more than vitriolic hyperbole. I’ve tried over and over to talk with anyone in the TS-not-TG camp and they have always broken down into personal attacks or they simply end the dialogue.
As I said, your PM is a perfect example as to why there needs to be some sort of dialogue started. Since you’ve just said that you’re not anti-transgender, I don’t understand what your concerns are. If you asked me what I think your concerns are, I’d say that from what I read, you think transgender people have somehow stripped you of your identity, are apparently lying by claiming that transsexualism isn’t a medical issue and that transgender people are standing in the way of equality. Maybe this isn’t what you actually mean, but it is precisely what I – and many, many others – get when we read your posts. If I am (and there’s every possibility that I am) misunderstanding your issues, PLEASE correct me. This is precisely the reason I’m putting all this time and energy into trying to dialogue.
Would you be willing to continue a dialogue? If not, can you refer me to someone who shares your views that would be willing to dialogue?
You seem like a really intelligent, passionate and articulate advocate. I’m attempting to engage you in a dialogue because I’m hoping that you won’t simply call me a bunch of names and end a dialogue.
Of course I have questions and of course I will question the logic behind your statements because I want to understand. I really hope that you would do the same! Just because I question your logic doesn’t mean that I’m questioning you, your identity or your truth. I simply want to understand. Believe me, I hope that the TS-not-TG camp won’t turn out to be what I currently think it is. Currently, the TS-not-TG camp is an embarrassing to me. I currently view the TS-not-TG camp as being so blinded by their own transphobia that they actually think that our oppressors will gift us rights if we can just get them to view transsexuals as being “normal” (because, after all, we’re suffering from a medical issue – unlike those funky crossdressers) – that it is a smart move to tether our right to equality to the ever changing notions of normalcy; that the TS-not-TG folks are transphobic in the same way that the Mattachine Society was homophobic. Maybe this perception is all wrong, but until someone in the TS-not-TG camp will actually talk to me, how can I be expected to change my perception? I’m certainly willing to learn otherwise. I’m absolutely willing to cast off my current views if they turn out to be invalid!
Thus far, I’ve not been able to successfully talk with anyone who seems to feel like you do. When I question the logical underpinnings of an argument, every single person I’ve tried to talk with either ceases to respond or devolves into schoolyard name calling
If you choose to actually dialogue, you might be frustrated, offended or angered with my questions – I can’t promise that you won’t. Certainly my questions would not be intended to frustrate, offend or anger you. I just ask that you share your thoughts honestly so that I can do the same… and hopefully I will be able to correct any incorrect views I currently hold concerning the TS-not-TG camp. However, if the TS-not-TG camp can’t even withstand being questioned, it will certainly reinforce my current view that the TS-not-TG movement has more to do with dogma than rationality.
I’m really, really hoping that you’ll be open to dialogue… or at the very least refer me to someone who is.
Thank you for taking the time to respond to me and I hope you have a great evening!
After sending my reply, I went back to the post that initiated Love’s PM:
Yup, her response was to block me on FaceBook. And you know what? I give up. I really think that people in the Love Camp are just pseudo-victims prone to histrionics and I believe that because I’ve not been offered any evidance to support any other conclusion.
If someone from the TS-not-TG camp wants to dialogue, my door is wide open! I would welcome an actual dialogue, but as of today, I’m not wasting any more of my time and energy begging them to open the lines of communication. From what I’ve seen, opening the lines of communication would seriously harsh the victimization buzz they’re enjoying right now. It’s really hard to be a victim when your supposed victimizer is begging you to correct their misconceptions.
Basically, I now see them as the trolls of the trans community. They’re haters and they’re gonna hate.
2/24/2011 UPDATE: I’m really happy with the outcome of this post. While the usual suspects did what they’ve continued to do over the past several months, a number of folks have stepped forward and we are currently enjoying dialogues without ad hominem attacks or strawman arguments. Thus far, I’ve found that there doesn’t seem to be any one real consensus on why transsexuals should be excluded from the transgender community. Thus far, everyone has had their own personal reason. About half are annoyed with Love and one even stated that they feel that she’s an “elitist.”
To those of you who have shared your views and experiences with me over the past few days, THANK YOU! I really appreciate having the opportunity to learn more about what seems to be largely personal reasons for your stance on this issue