Identity VS Definitions
November 30, 2011
January 14, 2012

More Separatist Crap

I just read a sad little rant by a TS Separatist:

“I see the T in lgbt as being a dumping zone, a miscelaneous, really in my view, the T is a junk drawer, an oubliette if you will. The T can stand for MEN who wear women’s clothes for reasons of sexual arousal, it can stand for gay MEN who wear women’s clothes for reasons of entertainment, it can stand for Men who are still sorting out why and what and feel good wearing women’s clothes, and then there are the transsexuals. I really feel it is unjust. As a woman, I do not like being thrown in the “and other” box. My entire point is that discrimination against women who happen to be transgendered, is gender discrimination, and several people lately have fought being fired for instance or kept from medical help on the basis that it was gender bias, and they have won. All of the work done to secure women’s equality in america is the ground work we can stand upon, but we do not even approach it if we cower in the miscelaneous drawer. Most everyone I have met in America has been fine with being labeled LGBT because they take it forgranted they have no other option. They believe it is the best way to defend themselves, they feel alone and they perceive social infrastructure they can utilize to defend themselves, who can blame them, but this is because they do not fully grasp their right to be seen equal to cis gendered woman. If someone fired a woman for being a woman, that would be news and huge and the monster would be had, exceptions standing, and the same should be for women who happen to be of transitional gender. In effect, women of transitional gender are made to feel safe, when in fact they become invisible as what they are, just regular women, trying to live their lives. I am a woman, I am attracted to men, I have three little girls that I homeschool, I want to be respected the same way as the woman next to me, who gave birth to her children. I think the T is a misnomer. I think the drawer should be opened and everyone in it to be let out, to be seen for who and what they are and to be respected.”

The elitist premise of this burbeling is just stupid and should be disregarded. I mean that… the above statement is just uneducated, elitist, shame-wrapped, sophistic hubris. This is the wish to be a victim. It’s the continued whining of someone who hasn’t done their work around tranphobia.

I won’t even go into how crossdresser rights impact transsexual rights. I’ll pick that low-hanging fruit later. For now, by way of proving my above point, let’s just apply the author’s same logic to lesbians and gays:

The “L” is a junk draw; an oubliette if you will for butches, studs, fems and stealth L people who don’t want to be put under that umbrella with all of those stone butches. Stealth same-sex-loving women deserve to be respected and therefore the Lesbian taxonomy should be abandoned because people will just confuse studs and fems. Also, stone butches make women uncomfortable in the restroom.

Anti-Stud Facebook Group: A stud doesn't want to be associated with certain other studs.

The “G” is also a junk draw; dumping zone, a miscellaneous that covers everyone from the leather daddies, bears, queens and even the down-low guy who doesn’t want to be put under that umbrella with the queens. What about the Republican who doesn’t want anything to do with parades, flags, “special rights” and wants to just live his life? This Republican doesn’t want to make a big issue out of his sexuality which, is just a small part of himself after all. This is a biological issue – like being born intersex; its an issue that he manages. This guy is just a “normal” person and the idea that he is forced under the same umbrella as all the queens and leather daddies is offensive to him. Because it’s offensive to him, all gay culture needs to change and reject the umbrella term, “gay” because he claims the umbrella term confuses people and, he asserts without evidence, is the reason he can’t enjoy full civil rights.

Don't like the "Gay Community"

How many of us would take these lesbian and gay separatists seriously? This isn’t just a hypothetical question.

What if lesbian and gay separatists said that it was the normal* people (called the Mattachine society) who were the ones fighting for rights and that the movement was colonized by “screaming queens forming chorus lines and kicking went against everything that I wanted people to think about homosexuals … that we were a bunch of drag queens in the Village acting disorderly and tacky and cheap” (an actual quote about Stonewall by a Mattachine society member)? What about those poor Mattachine people who really, truly believe with all the shame in their little hearts that DOMA would never have become a reality had the normal folks separated all the weird gay people from their movement? Why hasn’t the Gay Borg allowed the Mattachine folks to redefine all of gay culture? Isn’t that just unfair?!?

Mattachine society's Stonewall message

Many (certainly not all) TS Separatists are our down-low**community and our Mattachine minded people who really believe that rights are gained through adherence to the original Mattachine slogan:

*What you do reflects on me, what I do reflects on you, what we do reflects on the rest of the community, so act and be normal.

The Mattachine slogan is a beautiful example of mind of a bullied child. It is the naïve belief that blames the victim. It represents the warped view that the bullying will end if the victim could only say the right things, have the right look and tap-dance, juggle and perform fast enough. I say this view is “naïve” because it is a world view that wrongly believes that bullying isn’t about power and is instead about our ability to fit in. They mistakenly believe that our oppressors fear our differences when in fact, our oppressors LOVE our differences because they use them to justify the very power they believe adds quality to their life. While the oppressor might have fear, their fear is about a loss of control, dominance and/or status and is ultimately about a loss of power for the oppressor.

When it comes down to it, here’s the basic, broad-brush world view differences between Separatists and Inclusionists…

[box] The Inclusionist World View:

  1. We ALL face oppression because our history or our expression violates cultural gender stereotypes.
  2. Our oppressors LOVE our differences and NEVER want our differences to be seen as normal differences (on par with differences which violate cultural norms, eg Look Who’s Coming For Dinner)
  3. Our oppressors use our differences to “otherize” us so that oppression becomes a social meme.
  4. Our oppressors oppress us because they like the power, not because they don’t like our differences.

The Separatist World View:

  1. Transsexuals face oppression because people confuse us with crossdressers and drag queens.
  2. Our oppressors HATE what they view as being strange and/or deviant behavior.
  3. Transsexualism isn’t about strange and/or deviant behavior; it’s a medical condition and has nothing to do with breaking gender stereotypes in our culture.
  4. Our oppressors will stop oppressing us if we can get them to see that we aren’t like crossdressers and that we are instead like intersex people.
[/box] We do not become normal by hiding our differences; we become normal by making our differences a normal part of life and that process begins with US. Being gay didn’t become normal by separating from the fem boys and butch girls and being transsexual won’t become normal by separating from the drag queens and crossdressers. There’s a reason Harvey Milk proclaimed “Come out! Come out! Come out!”

If a Separatist is reading this and takes away only one thing from this post, let it be this: Your true oppressors will always see you as being nothing more that a mutilated version of your original assigned sex. They will always only see you as a sad wretch that needs to be separated away… preferably in a mental institution. No matter what you do, you will NEVER, EVER be anything more than a deviant to them. They will always try to force this false meme into our culture so that normal, rational people think and act in irrational ways when they hear about trans issues. Changing our community history, changing our community language and creating strict regimented community definitions about who can and cannot identify as being a transsexual, an intersex person, crossdresser or transgender will NEVER, EVER do anything to change the way your oppressors view you.  You won’t gain a normal life by separating from what your oppressors don’t like; you gain a normal life by making your oppressor’s views abnormal.

You must come out. Come out… to your parents… I know that it is hard and will hurt them but think about how they will hurt you in the voting booth! Come out to your relatives… come out to your friends… if indeed they are your friends. Come out to your neighbors… to your fellow workers… to the people who work where you eat and shop… come out only to the people you know, and who know you. Not to anyone else. But once and for all, break down the myths, destroy the lies and distortions. For your sake. For their sake. For the sake of the youngsters who are becoming scared… – Harvey Milk, 6/25/1978

If the down-low guy doesn’t want to identify as being gay, then fine. If the stealth lesbian doesn’t want to identify as being a lesbian, then fine. If the TS Separatist doesn’t want to identify as being trans, then fine. HOWEVER, do not demand that the entire trans community rework its culture to suit your whims and unsubstantiated statements of fact.

For me it’s simple: we can either go the route of Harvey Milk or we can go the route of the Mattachines. I, myself, stand with Harvey Milk and with every other successful civil rights movement our nation has ever known.

**Down-low: “Rejecting a gay culture they perceive as white and effeminate, many black men have settled on a new identity, with its own vocabulary and customs and its own name: Down Low. ” – Double Lives On The Down Low by Benoit Denizet-Lewis. I’ve used this as a direct correlation to the “stealth” TS who claims a “stealth” status as a means of rejecting trans culture.



  1. natasha says:

    I’m so queer because I’m teh trans! I’m so much queerer than you, even though I’m really a middle aged straight white dude who wears women’s knickers.

    Privilege, much?

  2. Michelle Gould says:

    The Transgender is a true Rainbow Community. Yours does not seem so. Oh and our community includes the IR and UV spectrum (if you can understand that concept.

  3. divinehitter says:

    well im stealth and happy with my very respected by the stright community and comfortable with who i am,this is who i have been all my life.sorry im not comfortable with the GL Community just like bisexuals who dont air their dirty did it become GLBT when most bi people as well as some trans people choose not to be apart of that what point do you stop calling yourself trans?after transition you should be the Woman or Man you transitioned to be.Queer is a gay word.thats not who i am.we go through alot to be disrespected that way ,so if the stright community see me as stright thats fine because that works for me.i have no problem with trans people who live their life as the man or woman thay have become.its about feeling complete not about feeling like a freak.i am so tired of the GL Communiy trying to make us all look like we are queer and crossdressers who are gay people pretending to be trans people.i have never been to a G&L Parade because i live my life the same way stright and bi guys live their life.what ever happent to live and let live.

    • [well im stealth and happy with my life] Which is why I referred to people like yourself as being the non-cis version of someone who's "down-low".

      Here's what I wrote:
      Down-low: ”Rejecting a gay culture they perceive as white and effeminate, many black men have settled on a new identity, with its own vocabulary and customs and its own name: Down Low. ” – Double Lives On The Down Low by Benoit Denizet-Lewis. I’ve used this as a direct correlation to the “stealth” TS who claims a “stealth” status as a means of rejecting trans culture.

      [how did it become GLBT when most bi people as well as some trans people choose not to be apart of that crap.] That happened because a great number of bi and trans coalitions throughout our nation fought non-stop for that alliance over the span of a number of decades. While you might not value it, the majority of B and T people have and do.

      [at what point do you stop calling yourself trans] Does a lesbian cease to be homosexual if she doesn't identify with that umbrella term? Does an alcoholic cease to be a substance abuser if he doesn't identify with that umbrella term? Do Houstonians cease to be Texans if we don't identify with that term? I can apply this same question to practically any other English Language umbrella term (of which there are 1000s).

      [Queer is a gay word.thats not who i am.we go through alot to be disrespected that way] The first two sentences are opinion statements and the last is an assertion of fact. What objective evidence do you have to support your assertion?

      [Queer is a gay word.thats not who i am.we go through alot to be disrespected that way] This is another assertion of fact. Please provide a real-world example of this.

      [what ever happent to live and let live.] I think that's a great philosophy to stand by!

  4. Divinehitter says:

    Buy the way’i would date or marry a trans woman who is stealth just like a straight or bi male would because she is a woman to me, and its no body business.if you want to be happy with yourself and your life keep people out of your business,we get more respect from everyone but the G&l Community because thay hate on any one who is not Gay or lesbian .so how did it become GLBT? because i would never marry a lesbian.i date only straight,&bi women because i am a man and thats how everyone respect me.Gay people will out any one once thay no your me you would get more respect just like bi people who most G&L people really don’t care for.i been around enough people to no who the real haters are.

  5. divinehitter says:

    The G&L Community is a hate Community on any one who is not Gay, so how did it become GLBT,thay hate evan other gays just because thay choose not to parade all around the town like freaks and just want to live their on lives in peace.i dont blame the gay people who are in the closet,just like the trans people who are stealth,and the bi people who want nothing to do with that messy and let live.mind your business.i would marry a straight,bi or trans woman who is stealth,never a lesbian because i am a man.

  6. [The G&L Community is a hate Community on any one who is not Gay]

    Can you give an example of how the whole G&L community literally hates \”any one who is not Gay\”?

    • Divinehitter says:

      well for instance,the transmales and transfemales that are on line such as u tube ect. are there to unite and educate one another.every time i read something negative toward trans people,its always coming from a lesbian or gay male.a fem dyke said she wish this trans guy was shot. and she hate trans people.he is very handsome and get alot of love and support from his viewers.and thats not the first time i read negative things coming from dykes mainly.and in most cases its always black lesbos who think they are the shit.the only thing i see for sure is jealousy.and be for real we all no gays are always acting out and showing much hate toward bisexuals.the same hate they say straight people had toward them in the 60,70,80, the same hate this young generation have toward anyone who is not gay.i live my life as a straight male and after reading that i feel the same way men feel about them.why not shoot them.and no to gay marriag and i use to support it.just like Obama.

      • Ah, I see. You're basing that opinion on your personal experience online. I'm not sure that being an asshole is only limited to the GL community.

        Our gay brothers and sisters were fighting beside us in the first GLBT riot in 1958 and fought with us in every militant action trans folk initiated (Cooper's, Dewy's, Compton's up to and including Stonewall). The very first national queer leadership meeting that was held in 1968, trans folk were there. We always worked well together up until the Lesbian Separatist moment happened in the 1970s. The BS that Separatist nuts spread still haunts us today. It wasn't until the late 1980s that the wounds the Lesbian Separatists inflicted upon queer consciousness began to heal. The transphobia the Lesbian Separatist instilled and worked hard to propagate to anyone and everyone that would listen for more than a decade eroded many of our working partnerships. At the first Gay Rights March on Washington, Lesbian Separatist threatened to beat any trans person who was allowed to get on stage. Those ways of viewing trans folk persisted in some of our historic battles with folks like HRC.

        Lesbian separatists subscribed to a "radical feminist" philosophy that views gender difference in terms of essentialism. Unlike the liberal feminists of the mainstream women's movement, who argued that gender was a social construction, lesbian separatists contended that the differences between men and women are rooted in nature. Thus, women naturally possessed a female energy characterized by its warmth, nurturing, and pacifist qualities. On the other hand, due to their male energy, men were hard-wired to be aggressive, competitive, and destructive. Because men could not, or would not, ever change their ways, lesbian separatists believed that it was necessary for women to exclude them from their lives.

        Lesbian separatist feminists also excluded male-to-female transgendered people from their communities and other women-only spaces. For authors such as Janice Raymond and Mary Daly, male-to-female transsexuals should not be considered women, but instead agents of the patriarchy. According to this line of thinking, biology is destiny, because a biological male, even if a transsexual, will always possess masculine energy and privilege.

        In the 1970s, a number of high-profile incidents occurred in which MTF transsexuals were purged from lesbian communities. For example, in 1973 Beth Elliott, who was serving as Vice President of the San Francisco chapter of the Daughters of Bilitis, was outed as transsexual and forced to resign her post. Likewise, in 1977 rumors circulated that Sandy Stone, a recording engineer for Olivia Records (a women's music company), was transsexual. After threats of a boycott from lesbian separatists, Olivia management asked Stone to resign.

        By the mid-1980s, many lesbian separatist communities began to fracture around issues of race, class, and gender expression. Critics from both within and without the communities charged that radical feminist ideology held the white, middle-class woman as its standard, and that, in particular, the needs of women of color were ignored. Debates over sexuality, role playing, and who should be considered a "true" lesbian also polarized women-centered communities, and contributed to their decline.

        In fact we see a lot of this going on in the TS Separatist movement and their propaganda is, IMHO, just as corrosive as the Lesbian Separatist movement. Separatism is a cancer that has never helped any civil rights movement yet people keep going back to that protective strategy over and over again.

        • Divinehitter says:

          Well welcome to the real world because its a new time and day,like 2012.if they want to think on that level of shooting us its time to take note on who the real enemy is.its the ones who attacks the i said once, i get nothing but respect from straight people. maybe some of them are trans,i dont need to no if being discreet works for them, unlike radical lesbians & gay’s who need to no everyones business. if you are getting the respect you deserve why bother with that crap.the trans people who deal with that abuse keep putting themselves in that environment.I have had enough of their derogatory remarks toward trans people and will stand with the bio straight community against them because no one has to no your personal business unless you let them.they will betray you as soon as you let them into your life.unfortunately this country was bilt on separatism,you just need to no what side of the fence you belong on.and the only reason why they keep telling people to come out is because misery loves company.i think its important to keep educating the bio community on who we are as long as thats what you feel is do a great job!but as far as G&L being my brothers and sisters,i think not.

        • Divinehitter says:

          If you check out some of the you tube channels like ANF Jace,Revealing my chest video,this lesbo says she wish he was shot for no reason other than she hate trans people.that made me understand more why bio males and who no maybe some trans guys kill lesbians, the fems that is,not the studs.the person or thing goes by the name of SWAGITOUT.

  7. Cindy says:

    You would have much more credibility if you were to cite where you found that “sad little rant”. As it is now, this whole post smells of a strawman argument.

    BTW, no self-respecting “separatist” would use terms like “transitional gender” to refer to a transsexual person in transition. That’s a term more apt to be used by the TG camp.

  8. Cindy says:

    That’s your source? One of your TG friends sent you a note alleged to be written by an unnamed third party??? Oh yeah, that’s really credible!

    • When you question the "credibility" of the statement, are you saying that this was an attempt by an Inclusionist to misrepresent the Separatist position? Are you saying that the position taken in the rant is a position that you, as a Separatist, disavows?

      If you have something to say, why not make an assertion instead of hiding behind innuendo? If what you have to say is nothing more than an opinion that this is all a conspiracy, then fine; I don't have a problem with you having opinions. However, if you actually have conviction and wish to assert that this rant that's been popping up on various trans FaceBook groups is in fact, a nefarious plot to make Separatists look bad, then come out and say it instead of beating around a rhetorical bush. The feigning incredulity act is silly.

      • Cindy says:

        I just love the way faggots like you twist everything around.

        • I just love the way faggots like you twist everything around.

          Ah, and the troll shows it’s ugly face to the crowd. Take a bow Cindy because you’re done.

        • Divinehitter says:

          I told you!Cindy a radical lesbo calling you a faggot.could it be because trans women look better than a tired beat up looking lesbian?if i ever marry a trans woman in which i prefer,someone who is my equal,a lesbo troll better not ever disrespect her.

        • Actually, Cindy is transsexual separatist. As I said, G&L people are not the only ones who can be assholes. Note the way she is ready to stigmatize others in the exact same way the lesbian separatists did.

  9. Divinehitter says:

    oh well thats a girl fight for you.

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