I just HAD to share this attempted PWN before the author deleted her comment:
To me, this post represents the epitome of what’s wrong with TS Separatism. The credulity, the belief that only post-ops can have valid experience, views and/or voice and the hierarchical elitism… It’s just wrong on so many levels.
Unless the author deletes her comment, you can see it here.
Isn’t this the same Deena that called in from her remote Florida location the night you had your webtv program debating Separatists? The one in the bad wig and whiskey and cigarettes voice? The one two and a half sheets into the wind? Yeah, she’s one of the regular contributors on “Susan Taylor’s” blog, Enough Non-Sense.
Yeah, that’s it.
I've no idea. In general, I liked the Deena that I spoke with that night and enjoyed talking with her.
I don't remember her having a bad hair day that night, but I know I've had more than my fair share of them. I read on that blog sometime recently where I'm described as being something like a huge embarrassing lumbering oaf. LOL!
I listened to that broadcast and I agree with Lisa. Deena sounds like a crazy old geezer. I have trouble with anyone who tries to invalidate someone elses experiences just because they don’t conform to their crazy model of the world. I’m willing to bet that most of these separatists haven’t had their vaginal surgeries yet. They’re complaining about things they know nothing about. They latch onto feminist views thinking that “real women” will look upon them more favorably, all the while not knowing that these women would sooner poke fun of them behind their backs than truly accept them as one of their own. PUH-LEEZE… separatist? More like stupidest!
Now Cristan why ever would I delete any comments I made? I have always openly admitted to being a ditz. I often state things in ways that are subject to misinterpretation. What I try to avoid is intentionally trashing another person although I admit being tempted frequently.
You and I do not evidently think alike. I abhor hierarchies but you seem to relate to life around you from an up and down perspective. I don’t hold a Senator in any greater esteem than a homeless person. I enjoy times spent with both. But, I do recognize differences in their experiences and understandings of life.
Take for a moment the current vexation about Ru Paul. Ru is a he. Ru is a drag queen. Ru is not transsexual. I personally think Ru is entertaining and delightful. Ru would probably refer to me as a trannie if we knew each other. I’d probably tell him he’s always been such a sweet nigger just to see if he really is sincere when he says that he doesn’t take himself seriously and words don’t matter. On one level Ru and I are exactly the same. We are humans. Ru is vastly superior to me in many ways. He is an outrageously successful entertainer and better looking than me in both a dress as well as a business suit. He is younger and I could go on at length extolling him. In fact I’m not sure if I am superior to Ru in any way. But let’s take this contrast into the “transgender party line”. The fail of the umbrella concept is not so much that Ru and I both do not fit in some ways outside “normal heterosexuality”. No, the fail is when you try to tell the heterosexual majority that Ru and I are the same. You may not mean to be conveying that but unfortunately that is what Jane and Joe six pack take from it. There are 300 million people in this country and most haven’t either the time or interest in educating themselves on such topics as drag, pre-op, sex/gender identity and so forth. They get their takeaway from snippets on television and watching youtube videos.
I’m really not sure where all these terms like HBSers, true transsexuals, separatists come from. You want to give them negative inferences. What I see are some women pleading that you not confuse the public into believing Ru and I are somehow the same when in fact we are very different.
There was a time in my life when I thought the umbrella concept made ultimate sense because I viewed it as spanning everything including the hetero-normative folks. But as time has gone on I have seen it morph into a convenient big box where “not normal” people get dumped and a lot of society wants to seal that box shut and not deal with the complexities of differences. Heck I even get the impression that representative Frost in Tennessee wants to seal it and send it to the crematorium.
I’m the first to admit there are no clear and precise delineations along the spectrum which allow us to easily say it should be carved up here and here and here. But does that mean we take the easy way out and say Ru and I are the same? Ru has his male privilege, civil rights protections and probably could care less about things like inclusive ENDA. I wouldn’t expect him to be against it but what relevance does it have in his life?
So what I conclude is that yes there is a certain fluidity within “the spectrum” but let us openly and with intellectual integrity make the effort to also define and present some fundamental differences for Jane Q public.
On a final note I would be remiss if I didn’t say to MZ Bigrig … kiss my grits.
I abhor hierarchies but you seem to relate to life around you from an up and down perspective
Really? And where did you find the evidence to inform this opinion?
the fail is when you try to tell the heterosexual majority that Ru and I are the same
Really? And where did you find the evidence to inform this opinion? Please quote me claiming that Ru and I are exactly the same. Please quote ANY Inclusionist who claimed that drag queens and transsexuals are exactly the same.
If I said that a baseball and apple are the same in that they are both round objects, would you then conclude that I\’m asserting that you can eat a baseball? If I said that a transsexual and drag queen are the same in that they are both break cultural gender stereotypes, would you then conclude that I\’m asserting that drag queens want to surgically remove their penis?
What I see are some women pleading that you not confuse the public into believing Ru and I are somehow the same when in fact we are very different.
So… please post into a reply wherein I – or any other Inclusionist – makes the claim that Ru and I are exactly the same.
I’m the first to admit there are no clear and precise delineations along the spectrum which allow us to easily say it should be carved up here and here and here. But does that mean we take the easy way out and say Ru and I are the same?
At this point, all I\’ll say is:
Cristan I have learned that you have a particular proclivity for parsing out bits that can be cast disparagingly devoid of their original context. Thats OK because it is you. It is also why many people shy away from engaging in discussions with you. Personally I don’t keep score that way.
I fully expect the larger public to someday give the TG agenda a huge slap down. Unfortunately they won’t care about differentiating you or me from drag queens but will just say the equivalent of “burn them all at the stake”.
I think you know me well enough to understand that I do not wish ill on cross dressers, drag queens or anyone else. But as has been oft said the devil is in the details. I have told you that I do not have any particularly brilliant solutions for our complex society. But let me suggest that the umbrella or spectrum construct needs to be reexamined. I’m not even saying disassemble it but consider modifying it to reflect the realities of how the larger public relates to parts of it. Kind of like saying Newtonian physics was wonderful but it failed when the motion of an object approached the speed of light. We need the gender/sex equivalent of E=(MC)squared to go beyond the umbrella within the community and reach something that will work in larger society.
On another blog somewhere recently in cyberspace I postulated that perhaps a multidimensional matrix could be used to classify humans, all humans. I assigned 1 to the concept of female, 2 to male and 3 to intersex I suppose 4 could be used for bisexual. I came up with 4 dimensions. First was “identified at birth as”, Second was “identifies as”, third was “presents as”: and fourth was “attracted sexually to”. A natal female hetero-normative person would then be a 1,1,1,2. A lesbian would be a 1,1,1,1 or could be perhaps a 1,1,2,1. An M2F would be a 2,1,1,2 if attracted sexually to men. I can see flaws or rough spots in this construct and it would be important to recognize that a single individual might be fluid across a span of time. Ru for example presents as male one hour and female later in the very same day so the third component of the matrix oscillates rapidly in his life.
Such a matrix approach would recognize the spectrum as classic sex/gender theory and move towards a type of quantum mechanics of human sexuality. I think it would provide a better communication vehicle for interaction with what I call larger society. To draw the parallel with physics consider this from wikipedia “In the context of quantum mechanics, the wave–particle duality of energy and matter and the uncertainty principle provide a unified view of the behavior of photons, electrons and other atomic-scale objects.”
I hope this isn’t all to abstract. I’m simply advocating the development of something beyond the umbrella-istic construct. Hopefully something positive that refrains from hierarchical and potentially judgmental thinking. Perhaps you could improve on it.
What\’s the difference between your numerical matrix and a linguistic matrix wherein someone like me says: \”Hi, I\’m transgender and if you have to know, I\’m a post-op transsexual woman.\”
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